DISQUS

Both Sides of the Table: Most Startups Should be Deer Hunters

  • giffc · 3 months ago
    Enjoyed the post. I've personally seen two bad results from elephant-obsession: 1. a startup I rep'd at Broadview which basically sold it's product dev team to a big customer -- they got lots of revenue, but essentially had a market of 1 company, and thus no exit potential at all; 2. over-concentration of revenue among big customers, with the loss of one leading to a nasty spiral of layoffs and death of morale.

    Still, elephants can provide money, credibility, and PR so can be worth chasing as long as you keep the sales investment within reason and are willing to stand your ground and walk from a bad deal.

    My only extra color on "deer" is to warn newer entrepreneurs not to fall into the preconception that smaller companies are always easier to sell. This was a notion a lot of players had in the client/server ERP space, and learned to their chagrin that the mid-market sales cycle was as long and complex, and for a lot less money.
  • msuster · 3 months ago
    agreed on all points. My analogy of a rabbit is that they seem plentiful but are hard to catch - probably even harder than deer. And when you get them there's less meat.
  • giffc · 3 months ago
    ah gotcha, you're putting the mid-market in the rabbit category for SAP/Oracle in that stage of the ERP market. Yes, I guess you cannot define size explicitly -- it all depends on context.
  • Roman Giverts · 3 months ago
    Interesting way of describing these customers, haven't thought about it that way.

    One category that is also relevant is "baby elephants." This would be doing a smaller deal with a very large company. For example, in my company (which has 3 employees), Johnson & Johnson is a customer. But it's very different than the elephant you describe. Our deal is with a division of J&J, and in that company, our product is currently only focused on 1 single product line. The advantage are:
    1) It's a small enough deal for us to handle the work while developing new customers
    2) We're not being pushed around so we can learn as we go.
    3) We can still reference J&J as a customer.
    4) most interestingly - 3 other J&J companies have already heard of us through internal discussions, which is a pretty cool way to generate leads.

    So, if we can expand to more divisions, we grow and the baby elephant grows.

    Just another model for customer development that I think works, in addition to deer hunting.
  • msuster · 3 months ago
    I get it. Yes, divisions of companies can be seen as deer. But ... many divisions of large companies still behave like elephants because they can. So you just have to be careful.
  • sfoskett · 3 months ago
    Even us vegetarians agree with the need to match your game with your hunting abilities! Wise words, especially the one: "most"

    Inventors of rabbit traps and elephant guns can get mighty rich hunting that game!
  • Shava Nerad · 3 months ago
    Hmmm.... So are affiliates/resellers/licensees automatically deer for the most part? As aggregators you might think so.
  • msuster · 3 months ago
    resellers or licensees are a whole different kettle of fish and a topic for a different post
  • David Semeria · 3 months ago
    As usual, excellent stuff.

    One solution is to give clients tools to customize the product themselves. Bigger clients may have bigger needs, but they also have more resources to implement them.

    What I'm basically saying is that companies should consider viewing their products/services as platforms.
  • msuster · 3 months ago
    More resources but more demanding. Tools to customize = requirement that may or may not be needed for deer. I'm just saying, once you start it's a slippery slope.
  • David Semeria · 3 months ago
    Sure, I agree 100%. I'm just saying that the effort needed to create the customization tools enhances the entire platform, and doesn't drag the product towards the specific needs of any single large client.

    Take a bit more development pain up-front, to save yourself some of the future grief you described in the post.
  • gavinbaker · 3 months ago
    Great post! Your bit about elephants reminds me of "Crossing the Chasm" - thanks for taking the time to share.
  • msuster · 3 months ago
    We built our whole first company around the idea of Crossing the Chasm. But as of 2009 I now believe some of the ideas from the book are outdated. A topic for a different post!
  • gavinbaker · 3 months ago
    "Crossing the Chasm" was an eye opener for me as well. Additionally I just read @zappos post on poker tables. Combined with yours the title post could be, "10 point buck at the poker table."

    http://blogs.zappos.com/blogs/ceo-and-coo-blog/...
  • Roman Giverts · 3 months ago
    I thought of Crossing the Chasm too. It was a great book when I was in college, but as you actually get out there you realize... if only it was that simple. I think most industries have a technology adoption life cycle, but it's not always bell curved and it's not always grouped into visionaries, pragmatists, etc. One of the challenges is figuring out the actual technology adoption life cycle in a particular industry you are selling to.
  • msuster · 3 months ago
    I also don't believe any more in the approach of going deep in one vertical and when you've captured that vertical moving to the next tangent market. That was the mistake I made in my first company.
  • Roman Giverts · 3 months ago
    What do you do instead? go after everything?
  • msuster · 3 months ago
    I believe in creating products that meet functional requirements of a part of a business but that can scale across industries. So your product might orient itself around sales professionals, marketing professionals, the treasury department, recruiting, HR or whatever. But something that you can market to multiple industries.

    OR ... you can build a deep vertical app in a large industry but with no intention of going across multiple verticals. Examples: Healthcare, Financial Services.
  • Roman Giverts · 3 months ago
    I agree that products should scale. And I understand that if a product is created to only solve the problems of a single vertical, it will be difficult to scale outside that vertical?

    But assuming you have a product that can scale, shouldn't start ups with limited resources focus on a single vertical from a sales and marketing standpoint? Don't you think people make decisions based on references, i.e who else is doing it?
  • msuster · 3 months ago
    Sometimes it is good, but it's not necessary. And it can be limiting.
  • Greg Brown · 3 months ago
    You must not be an actual hunter ;)

    Fantastic article, the analogies are really helpful. Unless actually hunting, of course.
  • msuster · 3 months ago
    ;-) I guess I've shown my true colors. I've only ever shot a gun twice and nowhere near an animal
  • brianli · 3 months ago
    Makes great sense, awesome post! Even where I work now (you know where), there's too much emphasis on elephants. We're losing sight on up and coming firms...

    To add to your animal analogy, how about, a segment for sheeps. They are passive, who follow you around and can attract other sheeps to build a flock. An ideal customer is also one who can attract/refer customers for you at relatively no cost.
  • msuster · 3 months ago
    Hey, Brian! Yes, you know where I learned to Elephant Hunt. re: sheep - I'm okay with them. If someone is willing to sign up, pay money and not suck up my resources I'll take them all day long.

    That said, the power of referenceability is enormously important in growing a business. But that's a different post.
  • Greg4 · 3 months ago
    I have a more positive view of the rabbit market, especially as online customer acquisition has gotten more effective and small businesses appear to have become more comfortable using remote, startup vendors. Successful rabbit hunters that come to mind include SurveyMonkey, Balsamiq, and FreshBooks. Whether those types of companies are quite large enough and growing fast enough to be attractive venture capital plays is a slightly different question. What are your thoughts on that? They seem to fall into the dreaded "single or double" category.

    Also, here's an interesting thought. Google AdWords is relevant to all these segments, but one could argue that it's more of a killer app for rabbits than bigger companies.
  • msuster · 3 months ago
    re: SurveyMonkey, FreshBooks, etc ... I don't know their revenue size. But I will say that if you can build up a large enough scale you can hunt rabbits. But I still prefer to build a large scale and focus on the deer. I'm not saying rabbit hunting can't work, just that too many people try it and fail. If you're a rabbit hunter make sure you know it and you better have a product that massive amounts of people can use and have a strategy for acquiring customers at a very low cost.

    re: AdWords - initially it was for rabbits IMO. In the end once you've scaled you can serve multiple segments - I'm really just talking about during the start-up phase.
  • Greg4 · 3 months ago
    Yup, makes sense. I've been giving it some thought since I'm debating whether my initial segment should be rabbits or deer (or a combination). I still kind of buy into the idea of a clearly-defined beachhead segment, even if it's not necessarily industry-focused. Looking forward to your eventual Chasm post.
  • Babette-BakeSpaceCEO · 3 months ago
    As a vegetarian... (I know kind of funny since I should be an equal opportunity eater given my space).. I will try to put my feelings for hunting animals aside.

    Interesting piece. I guess my main question is.. what are we talking about here... building a business that you're going to run for years to come or positioning it for an acquisition/exit?

    While they may seem the same, I think there is a case for going after some elephants even if it almost kills you to do so. Why? Because have you ever been around a group of VCs and listed off your sales clients and they had that glazed look of "so what?" LOL Seriously, while bagging elephants might not be a sustainable model for most small companies, you need a few to show you're ready to play with the big boys - don't you think? Plus, elephants attract elephants. No one wants to be the last at the party. If you have too much business and need to scale, that's not a bad thing.... that's called "you're fundable."

    Actually, the sheep analogy that @brianli posted below is interesting. Sheeps are ones with built in fan bases and high PR value and they technically can feed and clothe you. :) But they pretty hard to catch. Not sure how smart they are..
  • msuster · 3 months ago
    I'm talking about businesses that scale, not quick flips. The requirements for elephants drive companies to do things that they often shouldn't do. Yes, you can have one or two elephants as validation for your idea. But be careful not to orient the entire company around serving them as I did. I find many companies end up doing this.
  • Babette-BakeSpaceCEO · 3 months ago
    True.. good point. Thanks for your reply.
  • Ben Satterfield · 3 months ago
    This is such a great article. Mark, I have been in this situation twice already. I can't help but ignore the urge to leave a product "open to anyone" because we've added features that are broad. I usually make a product with an intent on functionality and see what groups attract to it, before I decide what market and what size is the right to go after (with Twiddla.com I've been doing this). Am I just building a trap and then going after whatever game shows up? If so, this does this even count as hunting (maybe I'm just fishing), cause I'll eat anything I can get ;) Thanks for the insight.
  • John Wright · 3 months ago
    Great article Mark! Informative and entertaining.
  • Mike Su · 3 months ago
    Good stuff Mark! Couldn't agree more. For the years I worked at Symantec, I saw first hand what it takes to hunt elephants. And I completely agree, it's hard, or darn near impossible, for a startup to chase after those elephants. Customers would regularly ask for two year roadmaps and ask you to commit to those features. The type of thing that would make Steve Blank or Eric Ries throw up their breakfast :) The sales cycles are measured in months if not years. RFPs that are broken into, I kid you not, multiple volumes (on a separate note, I'm convinced if someday we are able to completely digitize the RFP process, we'd save what's left of the Amazon). Once you land the customer, then it's backwards compatibility, supporting Windows 3.1 etc. etc.

    Companies like Symantec, IBM, etc can afford to chase after these big deals. Heck, the customer is pre-disposed to pick one of these big brands. CIOs could lose their jobs if they picked a startup whose product failed or went out of business. But who could blame them for going with Cisco or IBM? Unless you have completely defensible IP that solves an urgent problem that no-one else can solve, goodluck. And even if you have all those things, your best bet is to white label as part of a bundle with a bigger partner who hunts elephants rather than selling direct. But even then, you're still dealing with all the backwards compatibility issues and support demands.

    Sadly, most of these problems have nothing to do with product or features, but the political realities of selling to enterprises, which is why most entrepreneurs get tempted to hunt elephant - they know the elephant needs it, they know they're better than everyone else, so why wouldn't they be able to bag the big fat juicy elephant?
  • msuster · 3 months ago
    Even worse - many big customers pick big consultants to evaluate software selection. Paid consultants never say, "pick the simplest product that meets your needs so that it will be used." In stead they say, "here is our 12 tab spreadsheet with the 115 criteria for selection." Hand made for BigCo to win. Thanks for your valuable input.
  • Mike Su · 3 months ago
    Yes! Exactly. And those spreadsheets, of course, are built by 22 year old college grads who worked 90 hours a week to get it done who have never had to live with the consequences of those decisions. The partner reviews it for typos and then passes it along to the client along with a six to seven figure invoice. These irrational realities of the business "game" are often overlooked by startups who are passionate about building great software and believe quality and rational minds will win the day.
  • jasonspalace · 3 months ago
    so from the post and comments that follow, small businesses would be deer right? it's 2009 and to me this market still seems undernourished with great internet products, my development efforts are validated for the week with another great post! =)
  • msuster · 3 months ago
    Depends on your definition of small business. Soho for example are rabbits. The top end of SMB might be rabbits or deer. Depends how much $$ they are willing to part with for a solution like yours and how easy or not it is to reach them.
  • jasonspalace · 3 months ago
    so Homestead, in your firm's portfolio, aims at rabbits? and when you say "how easy or not", you mean how capital intensive? now i have something to think about...
  • jeremyhanks · 3 months ago
    AMEN! I've been living this with my company Doba for the past 7 years. We've been hunting rabbits like wild, being distracted by a couple of elephants, all the while hoping and praying and trying like hell to figure out how to bag a couple of deer and scale it. Super thoughts!
  • msuster · 3 months ago
    Thank you. I've been there.
  • adityavempaty · 3 months ago
    This post was great! Really enjoyed the bit about teh rabbits, as this is a path i have thought about going when creating my startup and looking for demo clients. The hardest part about giving a free demo and asking for input seems to be that even though its free, moment you ask for feedback the rabbit clients still run away.
    The deer ones which have stable growth and are eager to watch others grow (as I have learned from Blank to call them early-vangaists) are ones which want to help you but these are few and far inbetween.

    Now comes the elephants, these guys wont even touch you even if tis for free and a demo for feedback and take too long to get around the red tape to even get their attention. I have realized its best for these guys to come after you rather than you to them. Hence in terms of your post, for an early stage startup like mine: I would want many deer and few rabbits drinking from my waterhole (product) so that i can attract the elephants :)

    Question, what if one does not have the "right conections" from high up to get a call, is it worthwhile to start higher a sales team at that point or one sales guy with a huge Rolodex?
  • msuster · 3 months ago
    re: elephants - I would argue that you need to be careful even if they come to you. The problem is that just serving them can have a negative impact on your business. Depends on the kind of business, but for many it's a poisoned chalice.

    re: hiring senior sales guy - never! I'm writing a future post on that. Please don't think that will solve your problems - it won't. It will just add a lot more costs to your business.
  • Daniel at Lynton Labs · 3 months ago
    I love your analogies! And you made me want to pop in deer hunter again. Well done.
  • Scott Wheeler · 3 months ago
    Another thing that is easy to miss in the excitement of an elephant showing up at your door is that if you're an early stage startup, they're probably not looking to buy your product; they're looking to buy your company. If you don't know the ropes and what that looks like it's easy to get caught up in thinking you're going to do a big sale only to find out that that's not what you were talking about.
  • Andrew Warner · 3 months ago
    Mark, do you have examples of deer customers?
  • msuster · 3 months ago
    I think it's a segmentation exercise for any company to determine the exact value but let me say it this way:

    Elephants = very large companies. Large contracts $100k+ but huge demands because they know they're big.

    Rabbits = web 2.0 freemium focus. I'll just charge users $5 / months for my product and lots of SOHO customers will pay. a) they seldom convert easily and when you do convert you get $60 / year.

    Deer are somewhere in between. It's companies or departments that are willing to spend real money. I can't say what that is because the value of what someone will pay for a product depends on the perceived utility of that product and the ROI to the purchaser (real or implicit). But in my experience for many companies this means getting meaningful money in exchange for using your product.

    In my past experience Elephants contracts were $250k+, Deer were $50k-$100k and Rabbits were $5k-25k. Everything between were edge cases. But obviously these price points are not blanket prices across all businesses.

    My deer were regional engineering firms, mid-sized construction firms or regional utility companies. My elephants were: BNP Paribas (the largest bank in Europe) who consumed my entire engineering resources for 6 months, The London Underground (similar story), Thames Water, etc.

    We had great references and quick cash. But we ended up being a company who didn't pursue the larger strategy that we all believed in.

    Hope that adds the color you were after. Thanks for stopping by.
  • traviscooper · 3 months ago
    totally agree.
  • Vaibhav Domkundwar · 3 months ago
    I couldn't agree more and I think this is the best articulation of a common problem that every smart entrepreneurial salesperson realizes.

    I'd like to add one more point for going after elephants. My first startup ended up selling mainly to elephants (large mobile carriers). As we sold to carriers in Europe and Asia and Africa, and listened "a little too closely" to our customers who had varying requirements as their markets were very different, we turned from a product to a solutions company. And its tough to turn back with all the revenue pressure and promises sales has to make to close accounts.

    You warning about going after rabbits is perfect as well. The success of Basecamp has spawned way too many features-being-launched-as-SaaS-products companies (think of how many online invoicing apps are out there) and its impossible for them to build meaningful businesses in the long run. I think building meatier products that you can charge upwards of $100/month and ideally $500/month is much better.

    Thanks for spurring such a valuable discussion.
  • msuster · 3 months ago
    thank you. we have a name for those feature co's. We call them FNAC (feature not a company).
  • Vaibhav Domkundwar · 3 months ago
    Apt.

    Do you think DailyBooth is a feature or a company?
  • msuster · 3 months ago
    When I first heard about it I thought FNAC. But at 6.5 million users I'll have to register and understand what it's all about.
  • Rahul · 3 months ago
    Great analogies Mark. I think its helpful to make some assumptions to decide on the size of the customer to focus on. If my marketing and development costs so much and I expect x% success of all prospects I approach I must sign so many customers... so I must go after deers or elephants to make it worth my while. I can see deers to be the ideal customer in most cases because of the overhead (making rabits not profitable)...i also think elephants tend to have long sales cycles which increases the sales cost.
  • msuster · 3 months ago
    Exactly.
  • Rahul · 1 month ago
    Mark, It is great that you reply to a lot of comments on your blog. It creates a very engaging audience! I went back to this post as a 'refresher' and saw you commented on my post a month after (thanks for the comment. it makes me more confident in what im doing)...though Im not sure why I didnt get an email notification after subscribing to the comments.
  • msuster · 1 month ago
    Hmm. Not sure why you didn't get an email notice - maybe check your Disqus settings and/or your spam filter? But maybe it's a nice excuse to come back to the blog to check out the comments ;-)
  • jennifer · 3 months ago
  • Paul Stamatiou · 2 months ago
    Nothing to say - just wanted to let you know I thorougly enjoyed this post!
  • msuster · 1 month ago
    thanks, Paul. That's good enough - it's nice just to get feedback.
  • Harry van der Veen · 1 month ago
    Love your comparison with the animals.

    In our case we also have experience of aiming for the elephant and actually getting it. Though the hunt itself was very challenging and in the end not THAT rewarding as we lost a lot of resources on the project (more than initially expected and calculated). So even though hunt was very challenging and satisfying once the elephant was taken down, the meat was not that great. But of course you can use the knowledge that you gained to take down the elephant, to take down deers more easily, as they are more easily to hunt for. Looking back at it, the hunt was more about the hunting challenge itself, than that it was for the meat.